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Post by StonerStudent on Feb 2, 2005 0:31:15 GMT -5
What handguns does everybody like?
Myself I a big fan of the 1911a1 45acp, my first was a lend lease Colt that my father gave me. At present I have a Paraord C7.45 compact for a CCW piece. And a Springfield Armory Operator Custom.
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Post by compulsive269 on Feb 2, 2005 1:51:45 GMT -5
The DA 44mags by ruger and colt are a hoot to shoot for wheel guns, but my favs are the Glocks. The subs and compacts in 9mm and 40 are a blast. I CCW both 9s and if I can tame the recoil with a new guide tube, I'll carry the b*tt kicking 40s. I thought about adding a comp barrel but it would stick out from the slide by about 1 inch. I guess I could pick up a 23C, then add a new guide tube for more recoil reduction. ;D
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Post by Buckshot on Feb 3, 2005 1:32:57 GMT -5
Compulsive,
Guide tubes? Compensators?
Butt kicking 40 Short & Weak?
Buy a real metal pistol and you can probably handle a decent defense caliber like the .45 ACP.
Buckshot
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Post by compulsive269 on Feb 3, 2005 4:11:00 GMT -5
I have no qualms about shooting or owning an antiquated, metal, semi-auto. ;D What I would be worried about is the penetration, , of the bullet, and whether that bullet will pass thru the BG and hit someone else. The 40 not only has good penetration, but it stays in the intended target. I've heard stories about the weak 9mm round, but that might of been before the ammo available today. While I believe the 45 set the standard for effective knock down power, in todays world of CCW, the 45 is out of place because of over penetration. Civil law suits cost too much from any point of view. ;D Besides, do you really believe someone would rather carry a 10 pound chunk of clunky steel semi-auto pistol over a Glock which, IMO, sets the standard for reliability and accuracy! ;D ;D
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Post by Buckshot on Feb 4, 2005 2:59:28 GMT -5
Compulsive,
I know 2 guys that regularly carry Glocks. One is a retired Doctor who works as a Special Deputy (carries a full size double stack Glock) and works for the training firm I work for. He carries the Glock becasue he has the trigger tuned, he likes the consistent trigger pull, and that is what he could get a license to own and carry when he was a Dr. in NYC.
The other guy owns a motorcycle shop and carries PART of a baby Glock in .45 ACP. It currently has a non-Glock barrel and fire control system. The plastic frame has been re-worked by one of those outfits that does this to make it fit hands better. He is a gadget freak and a match shooter.
The other deputies I know (both full time and special) all carry the department issue H&K USP in .45 ACP. NOTE THAT. .45 ACP issued by local law enforcement! THey don't worry much about it having over-penetration, so why should I?
A couple of other guys I work with at the training company carry strictly M1911 pattern pieces. They vary somwhat depending on what they are doing, sometimes full size 5", sometimes Commander size and some times something with a 4" barrel. None of them will go below 4" in ANY .45 ACP barrel, and neither will I. THe motorcycle shop owner is the only one that goes below 4" and he says he probably will never buy another one that short as it is much more sensitive to changes than a 4" version.
Unless you are using hardball or a very short barrel the .45 ACP is NOT over penatrative. Good rounds like the Hydra-Shok, the Golden Saber, the Gold Dot, the Starfire and Winchester's SXJ or whatever it is have good records but if you are worried you can go to a lighter faster bullet in the Personal Defense lines and/or you can go to +P ammo.
Now I am really going to throw you a curve. My most carried piece is not a .45 at all! It is my S7W M640-1 J-frame .357 Mag! I carry it with Federal 158 gr. Hydra-Shok ammo. That is my "grab and go" gun. I only grab the .45s if I really don't like where I have to go or if I am going to a class that is all semi-autos.
Buckshot
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Post by compulsive269 on Feb 19, 2005 11:18:20 GMT -5
Yup, that's a curve! Maybe folks in your line of work or LEO's have more of a cushion with the law. Now don't get your hackles up. The problem I/we have is a lack of knowledge and experience. I/we, hear stories of over penetration and law suits and jail sentences bestowed upon people doing what they thought was right. We hear about violence; home invasions, rapes, beatings, etc. So, we try to get something that gives us some measure of protection, but not so much that we get a jail cell or pulled into court.
Many times we hear how one caliber, 357, 45 and others have characteristics that we desire or try to avoid. The one time occurrence gets over deserved attention and poof; "Don't carry a 357, 45, 10mm because of over penetration", "9mm doesn't have the stopping power", or my favorite, "The 45, even a near miss, will tear chunks out of a body that no one can live through." So, go and read QuaterBore's story. Now what do we do? Each situation is unique with a set of circumstances that may or may not be duplicated.
Which caliber should we carry? Okay, the biggest caliber a person's skill level and physical ability allows. Then what do most people like me do, analyze; which manufacturer, barrel length, compensated or not, ammo, practice time or place, holsters, when to shoot or run, etc. Many folks lack experience and can't get it, so we read, which leads to more analyzing/ brain freeze.
Many people will grab at anything that offers some measure of security, but that may lead to tunnel vision and the erroneous belief that one size fits all. Your work, my life, someone's handicap adds to the confusion of what to do or carry. Nothing speaks more to knowledge than actual experience, a plateau many can't reach.
Hence- Glocks are the best/Colt/S&W/whatever caliber/holster-carry method............
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Post by Buckshot on Feb 20, 2005 0:12:44 GMT -5
Compulsive,
I can't quite pick out what you may be trying to tell me.
One part of your message sounds like you are supporting training and knowledge, while the other part of your message sounds like you are supporting BS and magazine commandos!
Where is this stuff about .45 ACP and .357 Mab. being over penatrative comming from? We need hard, tracable infomation, not vague, rumor-like messages.
QuarterBore's account is very detailed and appears to be easily verifiyable, if needed. His reported results of a heavy premium standard velocity round out of a very short barrel don't really need to be back-checked as it both makes sense and has been seen before.
It almost sounds like you are trying to substitute "magazine commando" information and gun store BS for real training and knowledge. If people lack experience and WON'T get is (there is no CAN'T get it if you are persistent and willing to spend the time, energy and money necessary) then they have no business carrying a firearm for defense.
I will NEVER argue with anyone (though I may dig at them and/or tease them) for a well-reasoned argument based on good, reproducable, traceable facts.
Gun shop/gun rag commando BS will set me off in a heartbeat adn I will hound people who spout it mercilessly until they either put up their proof or shut up about the BS they are spewing.
Buckshot
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Post by compulsive269 on Feb 20, 2005 4:53:27 GMT -5
Gun store BS and commando magazines? Where do you think gun store info comes from, but from sources like LEO's. Commando magazines? Really? You like those? Well, some magazine articles that talk about self-defense or the calibers and firearms used by LEAs, on occasion, address over/under penetration/expansion and are not your beloved commando mags. Handgunner, Handguns and Guns have probably had articles addressing penetration and expansion issues. I am not going to spend time digging through them, so have at it if you choose. So what to do! I wish we had a smiley face that shrugged. You've been to the various internet forums, Buckshot, so go read up on penetration/expansion issues and verify away. Me, I'll go to web sites like www.glock.com and read up on what they have to say. I also like www.glocktalk.com, but if it doesn't come from a manufacturer's website then don't believe it. ;D Just kidding! Of course training and experience are important, but does a CCW have to go to an expensive training facility? NO. ISPA and IDPA are two good clubs for shooting experience and there are always the local gun ranges. The experience I was talking about was what Feds. state or local agencies get. Their training and experience is far above what a civilian gets. Buckshot, what did you mean about not carrying and training? Are you saying people that practice shooting at ranges should not be allowed to carry a firearm because they haven't had training from an expensive facility? What if they can't afford the price of a shooting range? Is shooting at targets when they go camping or hiking good enough? What if they only shoot once a month, is that enough? What about the elderly that don't or can't shoot often? What is the difference between a CCW or using a gun to protect a home by the home owner? So people that don't have enough training, according to your standards Buckshot, should not be allowed to own firearms? Really?
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Post by Buckshot on Feb 21, 2005 0:26:58 GMT -5
Compulsive,
I see that you are trying to warp what I said AGAIN!
I wrote "Magazine Commando" and you changed it to "Commando Magazine"!
My reference, a "Magazine Commando" is someone who knows everything becasue he reads it in a magazine, "it was printed somewhere, so it must be true!". Same-same for a "gunshop commando" except that he got it second hand at the local gunshop from a "magazine commando".
Your reference to "commando magazine" would most likely be something like "Soldier of Fortune". That much maligned magazine actually did have several good authors and much useful information in in back in the '70s and '80s, though I have not had a chance to read one in years if they are still published.
Obviously, I don't know where you are from, but things must differ greatly between there and Ohio.
We have NO public ranges in this quarter of the state. If you can't afford to join the range then either you don't shoot or you drive for 1 1/2 plus hours to shoot at the nearest public range.
Ohio has minimum standards for training to get a CCW. You must have a total of 12 hours training and two of those 12 hours MUST be spent on the range. If you don't meet these standards an ethical instructor WILL NOT sign off on your completion of the course and you will not get a license. If a student and an instructor perpetrates a fraud together then the student will loose the right to get a license, the isntructor will loose the right to be an instructor and both may well end up in jail for felony falsificaiton of official paperwork.
The standards are NOT my standards, they are the standards of the State I live in, I just happen to agree with them.
CCW permits you to carry a concealed weapon in public where most people will never know you are armed.
Having a firearm to defend your home is altogether different, you are not permitted to carry it out in public off of private property without transporting it unloaded.
There are MANY people who I would not deny a firearm for home protection that I want to see some positive proof of skills and knowledge from before they are permitted to carry in public.
Attending a class and range session should (if the instructors are competent) give you the knowledge and skill mentioned above. Issue of the license (it is SHALL ISSUE if background check is passed) states that you HAVE demonstrated the minimum skill and knowledge necessary for a CCW.
I saw a 92 year old guy take the course and pass. I saw a couple of kids (10 and 13, IIRC) take the course and pass, theough they could not get full completion certificates since they are too young by state law to own a handgun or get a CCW (must be 21).
The MOST onerous "test" I have seen to date for qualification is to put 15 rounds (3 strings of 5 rounds each) in an 8" circle at 7 yards from two handed standing (weaver or iscoscelese stances) in 1 minute per shot.
YES, if you can't meet these standards I don't want you to have a CCW around me!
Buckshot
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Post by StonerStudent on Feb 21, 2005 1:40:41 GMT -5
Cool a real debate ;D
We are sounding like a real board now!!!!
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Post by compulsive269 on Feb 21, 2005 10:43:14 GMT -5
Psssit Buckshot - when you read something in a magazine ie; Magazine Commando, Soldier of Fortune, or commando magazinessssssss - notice the ssss at the end, that's plural for magazine, sort of, well anyway, all of the stuff you read from any rag is first or second or third hand. I do agree that many magazinesssssss have reputable authors, but please realize where the author's pay check comes from. Do you actually believe any writer would put a negative spin on any product tooted in whichever magazine (sss) they produce articles for? Reputable authors, or not, are bias. They always speak to the strengths of products. AND, since you obviously follow info disseminated in magazinessss like Soldier of Fortune, Magazine Commando, or whatever, info which is second or third hand, how could you possibly not at least listen to a reputable gun store owner or sales person? Hummm? These guys do talk to authors, manufacturers, LEOs and other reputable sources of info, you know!? Maybe things are different in Ohio than here in Colorado, but I'm sure there are reputable firearms dealers in your area. I assume of course, you purchase your firearms from reputable sources and not some back ally stop and swap deal. Most reputable and knowledgeable firearms dealers are willing to share info with you regardless of their source cause most wouldn't spit out bad info on a bet. Their business depends on good products and info. Here in Colorado to get a CCW most people take classes which usually last anywhere from one to two days. So please, don't worry about us. Most people don't want to shoot anyone else anyway and they especially don't want to plunk their own toes of. I do agree with you on the subject of training and experience. The more the merrier, however I don't see the difference between CCW and home protection. Most property butts up to the property of someone else. Regardless of where you live; city, suburb or country, you have neighbors. So, if you get nervous about someone carrying in public with only a minimum amount of training, how could you not be nervous about the gun toting drugy with a freeze dried brain living in your neighborhood? Besides, isn't this CCW permit thing something new? Alaska is the last to allow citizens the right to carry without getting a license. Power to Alaska! So what are you going to do if the people ever do manage to get their rights back and don't need a license to carry. What about Mr. Freeze Dried Brain who may live next door to you and what are you going to do about the person who buys a gun for home protection but never fires it let alone practice with the firearm? Standards are a great thing to chew on but I don't understand your position of paranoia considering neighbors and all others. Just a note here. In Colorado we have public and private shooting ranges sprinkled through out our state. ;D ;D ;D Warping allowed area! ;D ;D ;D I'm thinking about getting a 1911. A reputable firearms dealer is having a sale of S&W firearms. Is a 1911 Deluxe stainless 45 acp for $630 a good price and is this a good gun, or should I be looking at another brand?
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Post by Buckshot on Feb 22, 2005 1:22:52 GMT -5
Compulsive,
First of all, remember that over half the population in the US can not read at the 8th grade level. Do you really want them spouting "facts" second hand when half of the time you can tell from what they say that they have no real idea of what they read? These are the people who brought you Winchester Black Felon ammo!
The magazines are bad enough by themselves, but 200% worse when filtered through one of these idiots.
Half the gun dealers I have seen over the years were not much better. A good many of them had an FFL for one 3 year term and when audited for renewal were found to be too stupid to keep the limited but required Federal records and denied a license renewal! I don't want these fools filtering magazine articles and regurgitating them back to me either.
These are the "magazine commandos" and "gun shop commandos"! We have one gun shop that has been open for less than 6 months within 40 miles. Other than that, we have WalMart and MC Sports. Oh, I forgot the "Outfitters" bike, exercise equipment, archery and "we can order it at MSRP + store".
All the old time gun shops were operated by guys of about the same age, and they closed up over a period of 10 years with no new shops opening.
Not much chance of getting "gun shop commando BS" around here as the new shop is set up in such a way that there is very little room for that. The owner has been into self defense and competitive handgunning for years and knows his stuff, so he doesn't have to put out BS.
Other than the American Rifleman, I don'd read gun magazines any more, tried of paying for biased BS billed as research. There have been a few writers over the years that would tell the truth and let the chips fall. They don't do much writing any more, those that are still alive. They won't suck up to manufacturers, so they don't get assignments. Too bad.
I live in a relatively small subdivision (~120 houses) out in a township. We have three classes of people living here. Neighbors, who have lived here for more than 10 years, acquaintences, who have lived here more than 5 years and have prospects of making neighbors and finally occupants, who have not made 5 years yet, or those that maybe never will like tenants.
10% or so are neighbors. 20% or so are acquaintences. The rest just basically don't count. Many of them have moved out here out of the city. It takes the neighbors, with some help from the acquaintences, about 6 - 9 months to break in the others as to basic concepts like no tresspassing and private property. We do that any way we need to from yelling out the front or back door to "going out to talk to them" which may mean anything from carrying nothing at all visible to carrying a double barreled shotgun. OF course there is also the option of having the deputy out to meet with you so that you can both talk to them, with the deputy prepared to make an arrest as necessary.
What I am worried about is the half-brained idiot that thinks his CCW is a license to be a part time cop and pulls it and kills someone he had no business killing, or even engaging at all, for that matter.
I have personally seen about 5 of these in the last year. Always wants to know when he can pull his gun if he gets lucky enough to get caught in a bank robery. Thinks he is a part time FBI agent or something, does not understand "when in fear for your life or the lives of your immdeiate family" which is what the local proscutor most often uses and he doesn't like "for protection of self and others" saying that that can easily lead you into trouble as you shoot the plainclothes cop who is actually chasing the bad guy. If you encounter one of these idiots you really LOOK for an excuse to fail them!
Home defense in Ohio is a much different thing. It can ONLY happen in the house. You can NOT use deadly force in defense of property, period. You are ONLY excused from trying to flee when physically in your house. So, if you are not in the process of fleeing from your property into your home, you are the star of a cluster foxtrot and anything that happens to you is your problem. Just DON'T try to make it my problem!
Yes, somewhat stand-offish, and somewhat proud of it. Just don't mess with camp A-105!
Answer to Firearms Question: If you are looking at a S&W clone of the M1911, make sure that it has been through the recalls!
The have been formally recalled at least once, and I have heard it said that they have some parts on them that may need to be updated if they are not of current vintage in addition to the recall.
I have often thought it funny that S&W can't get a clone of a 94 year old pistol right in over two years work!
I would probably look at a Rock Island Arms M1911 (imported from the Phillipines) at about half that price and invest the difference in price in upgrades (IF you find something you really NEED) and practice ammo.
Buckshot
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Post by compulsive269 on Feb 23, 2005 6:58:09 GMT -5
I can find no fault in your statement and I agree with you. Here in Colorado protecting your own life is okay, but at times confusing. I think we can intercede to save another's life as well. Everything seems to hang on the circumstances of the situation. Anyone here in Colorado that can speak to this subject, please do so! One guy shot and killed a neighbor through a locked front door. The neighbor was mad and was trying to batter the door down when he was stopped by the homeowner. I don't think any legal action was taken against the shooter. Another guy was attacked in a parking lot of a local movie rental business and beaten by a guy who was angry about a nick in his car door. The attacker found a pipe and was beating the other guy, so the man being beaten pulled a gun and killed the attacker and then shot the attacker's wife. She lived. Again, I don't think anything happened to the shooter. We also have a make my day law that basically says you can protect yourself and family in your home. A bad guy breaks in, you can shoot away. Again, everything seems to hinge on circumstance. Colorado has lots of friendly knowledgeable folks that have memberships to shooting clubs and we seem to have gun stores all over the place. The store I frequent has an indoor shooting range with a membership side and a public side. The sales people are good and have experience with many of the firearms they sell. We also have Sportsman's Warehouse, Gander Mountain and soon the ultimate mecca, Cabela's. AND, we have cop shops. Talk about conceal carry experts. Praise to the firearms and sports gods! ;D Unfortunately we do attract nuts. Some of them try to mimic the real LEO's and actually pull people over in a traffic stop, with flashing lights and all the trappings. The cops are usually all over this kind of stuff. Thanks for the advice on 1911s. I don't know enough about them to actually buy one yet, but I'm working on that. I guess I've never had to worry about a gun not shooting certain ammo or messing up and not firing, or having recalls! I didn't know guns have recalls. All the wheel guns I have are brand name and super reliable. My pistols, with only one brain dead purchase/exception are either Walther or Glock. AND, we all know about the legendary Glock, right out of the box, reliability and accuracy. ;D Sorry guy's, I just can't help myself!
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Post by compulsive269 on Feb 24, 2005 10:03:45 GMT -5
YoHo, Buckshot, maybe this Handgun forum should be called the B&C forum. I wonder where everyone else is? Anyway, I went to a small gun store in Bailey, Co. appropriately named Bailey Guns. This is the web site www.baileyguns.com So I walk into this place just to look and talk to the owner about a Ruger New Model Bisley and 1911s. I wish he had the Ruger in stock. What he did have on hand was a Kimber Tactical Custom II. I've heard nothing but good stuff about Kimber. After a fun two hour stay I left knowing I had two new friends; the Kimber 1911, that I was taking back home and my credit card company. Rules are rules so I'm off to the range today with my new Kimber 1911. The only tough decision I need to make is whether to leave my credit card buried in the back of my safe under lots of stuff or to use the credit card as a target at the range! Maybe we need a 1911 forum!
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Trisha
Junior Member
Posts: 35
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Post by Trisha on Feb 24, 2005 14:06:46 GMT -5
You guys seemed to be working things out just fine! Why interrupt?
;D
Yes, Carl is a good guy! One of the advantages of small town life (for those unfamiliar with Bailey, the town is one block long) is that hours can be lost without interruption in conversation quite easily!
I hope your new Kimber works out for you! Post pics and your range report, will you?
Trisha
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