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Post by Buckshot on Jan 15, 2005 2:06:24 GMT -5
Well, we will see if we can attract any more talk this way!
SS, I thought you would bite on this the first time since several mentioned (Ljungman, Hakim, MAS series) are the direct ancestors of the Stoner operating system.
Buckshot
Anyone on the list interested in old military rifles?
Mausers, Lee Enfields, Springfields, Enfields, Mosin-Nagants, Mannlichers, Schmit-Reubins, MASs and Krags?
How about the older semi-autos?
Hakims, Rashids, Ljungmans, Tokarevs, SKSs, FALNs, MASs, M1 Garands, M1 carbines, FN-FALs or even H&K/CETMEs?
Buckshot
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Post by Kacer on Jan 16, 2005 20:10:38 GMT -5
Buckshot, I'm currently on SS Disability (Hoping to be OFF it in the next year or two). So cost is ALWAYS a concern... any suggestions would certainly be welcome.  |
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Post by KaceCoyote on Jan 16, 2005 20:41:38 GMT -5
I've got a pair've Mosin Nagant M38s, built like friggin TANKS.
I still need to get an SKS however.
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Post by StonerStudent on Jan 16, 2005 22:07:41 GMT -5
Actually I thinking about picking up an old timer for a new match one of the clubs in my area is starting. I don't have alot of experance with the older bolt guns.
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Post by Buckshot on Jan 18, 2005 0:21:34 GMT -5
Kacer and SS,
Several inexpensive choices out there. I have listed general price ranges, then gotten prices from AIM, Inc. in Middletown, Ohio, a good place to deal with right here in Ohio. Of the two main places here in Ohio I would much rather deal with AIM than with SOG in Lebanon. Other prices from Centerfire Systems, also a decent place to deal with but in Kentucky. A couple of SOG prices in there too, to be fair.
Right now the best prices out there are the Mosin-Nagants.
First constructed in 1891 for the Imperial Russian Army, there are long rifles (M91), short Rifles (M91/30) carbines with bayonets (M44) and carbines without bayonets (M38 & M91/59). Some Finnish M39 rifles (getting very low) are still available also.
They are (at least until you get some history for them) butt ugly and crude. But they have worked (first for a peasant army then for a communist conscript army, then a peasant conscript communist army) during WW I, WW II, Korea and into Viet Nam.
They are capable of enough refinement that the Finnish Army kept the basic Mosin-Nagant and traded off Mausers and other rifles to get the Mosin-Nagants with their last development being the M39 Finnish Mosin-nagant, probably the most accurate Mosin-Nagant ever built and one of the heaviest barreled bolt action rifles ever issued.
These can be had for considerably less than $100.00 if you shop carefully. 10 round magazines. 7.62 X 54R Russian ammo. Ammo relatively cheap.
M-44 Carbine $79.95 from Centerfire
M91/30 Short Rifle $79.95 from Centerfire.
Next level is the Mausers and the Lee-Enfields.
The Mausers available now are either expensive (german, swedish, various contract) or Turkish. The Turkish Mausers can be very good, but again you must shop carefully. The Turks rebuilt some rifles time after time, bought others surplus and rebuilt them to their standards and even totally remodeled one type into another (Lee-Enfields remodeled to resemble Mausers!). You can with careful shopping, get a Turk Mauser for less than $130.00. 5 round magazines. Turks currently available in 7.92 X 57 Mauser. Ammo relatively cheap.
Yugo 24/47 $139.95 with bayonet, sling and pouch from AIM.
Yugo 24/47 $99.95 NO accessories, from SOG
Turk 1903/38 $89.95 NO accessories from SOG
Turk 1903/38 $69.97 No accessories from Centerfire.
Czech VZ-24 BRNO $79.95 No ACC, AS-IS from Centerfire
Lee-Enfields come in two types, the No. 1 Mk. III series with an open rear sight mounted on the barrel or the No. 4 series with a peep sight on the receiver.
These are probalby your premier bolt action combat rifles. Slick, fast action. 10 round magazine instead of the standard 5 round magazine. You have to shop carefully here to find a rifle under $150.00. .303 British caliber. Ammo not so cheap, most surplus gone, what is left is not in good shape.
British/Indian No. 4 Mk. I* $89.95 with spike bayonet from AIM.
Brit/Indian No. I Mk. III* $139.97 from Centerfire
Canadian No. 4 Mk. I* $129.95 from Centerfire
US Savage No. 4 Mk I* $199.97 from Centerfire
If you are looking for a little different rifle with a reputation for great accuracy there is the Swiss K31 straight pull rifle.
6 round magazine, straight pull bolt action(back and forth, no rotation in operation).
Ammo expensive either as surplus or as factory ammo. Some cheaper new factory ammo appearing. Very easy to reload and uses standard US components.
Swiss K31 $79.95 from AIM
If you are interested in a cheaper semi-auto there is the SKS.
Currently two models are available, both Yugoslavian. The M59 is a 10 round semi-auto carbine. THe M59/66 is the same rifle with an added grenade launcher system (grenade launcher doubles as a muzzle break) This is also a 10 round semi-auto carbine. Various price ranges. Caliber 7.62 X 39.
M59 $159.95 from AIM
M59/66 Unissued $159.95 from AIM
M59/66 Shooter Grade $99.95 from AIM
There are choices under $100.00 in each category. All of these will result in a serviceable rifle.
If you want more info on any of them, let me know.
Buckshot
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Post by Buckshot on Jan 18, 2005 0:41:06 GMT -5
Kacer,
Just thought of something else.
Have you fired any of these? 7.62 X 54R, 7.92 X 57 (AKA 8 X 57 and 8mm Mauser), .303 British and 7.5 X 55 Swiss are ALL main battle rifle rounds with a kick in the area of a heavy 12 ga. load.
You mentioned 12 ga. in a post. Have you fired a 12 ga?
Not a problem, almost anyone can be taught to deal with recoil, but I had to ask since on thinking about it most of what I have heard you talk about has been pistols and AR15s.
Buckshot
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Post by StonerStudent on Jan 18, 2005 0:54:21 GMT -5
Buckshot
I'm looking for a "match" rifle for a new match [called a rusty relics match]. I was thinking about the M31 or maybe a Mauser. I've been there and done the Enfield thing.......303 and a brass buttplate...ouch!!! ;D
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Post by Buckshot on Jan 18, 2005 1:53:22 GMT -5
SS,
You really want to win, get a Springfield M1903 (if you can deal with the sights) or a Springfield M1903A3 (better sight but much cruder adjustments) and some GI Match ammo! THe US M1917 can keep up shootoing but has no windage.
The problem is that MOST of the Mauser sights SUCK!
Inverted V [^] front blade and a V notch rear sight [V] are the WORST sets of sights you can get hold of for precision shooting
The only real exceptions to this are the Swedish Mausers and the Spanish FR series rifles.
Swiss K31 (what I think you called the M31?) has decent sights for the kind involved (square post front and open rear just like the Swedish Mausers) and they are noted for accuracy so that would be good. Do you reload, though? If not it is going to cost you to shoot one of these.
NONE Of these have any windage adjustment either!
Except for the Swedish Mauser (a relative smallbore in this class at 6.5mm) they are all going to thump about the same! If the Enfield bothered you they probably all will. All of them have steel or zinc if not brass on the buttplates!
They were all built to the same set of expectations and will all do about the same thing. You have bullets betwen 150 and 200 grains being made to move between 2500 and 2700 fps. US 150 gr. or 172 gr. at 2700 or 2600 fps. German 154 gr. or 196 gr. at 2700 or 2600 fps. Russian 154 gr. or 198 gr. at 2700 or 1550 fps. Swiss 152 gr. at 2650 fps. British 174 gr. at 2550 fps.
The Swedish gives you a break because it is a 160 gr. at 2400 fps or a 140 gr. at 2550 fps. Same for the 6.5 Japanese, 6.5 Carcano (Italian) and those other "smallbore rounds".
Unfortunately the Swedish Mausers are down to the last dribbles. The only distributor that I know of that has any at all is Samco Global in Florida. They show the following:
M41 Sniper with scope @ $1195.95 or $1295.95 each. M96 long rifles at $189.95 with cracked stock or Husquvarna at $349.95 and M38 short rifles at $169.95 with cracked stock or Husquvarna at $329.95. Ouch! Used to get them by the half dozen dor $87.50 each VG - Exc. no cracked stock.
A better (or somewhat cheaper anyway) possability is the Finish M39 Mosin-Nagant. Check Wholesale Guns and Ammo. Between $150.0 and $350.00 for various used ones or $249.95 for a new VKT.
FOR KACER (and maybe SS too):
The same outfit, Wholesale Guns and Ammo, shows the M=N M91/30 with bayonet, sling and cleaning kit, arsenal refurbished condition for $58.99 plus shipping.
Buckshot
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Post by Kacer on Jan 19, 2005 18:33:03 GMT -5
Kacer, Just thought of something else. Have you fired any of these? 7.62 X 54R, 7.92 X 57 (AKA 8 X 57 and 8mm Mauser), .303 British and 7.5 X 55 Swiss are ALL main battle rifle rounds with a kick in the area of a heavy 12 ga. load. You mentioned 12 ga. in a post. Have you fired a 12 ga? Not a problem, almost anyone can be taught to deal with recoil, but I had to ask since on thinking about it most of what I have heard you talk about has been pistols and AR15s. Buckshot Buckshot, There are MANY firearms that I have fired, but had no idea at the time, what they were, or knew at the time, but didn't either love oor hate them enough to "retain" what they were. I know I've shot and LIKED: 30.06 Baretta 92 9mm semi-auto handgun AR15 M16 Uzi Browning 9mm Bersa .380 handgun 12GA Shotgun Muzzleloader Kalishnakoff (sp?) AR50 S&W .22 handgun - semi-auto I've NO idea what caliber the Uzi was, when I shot it, I wasn't all that concerned about caliber, (At the time a bullet was a bullet was a bullet, NOW I know better.  ) and don't recall any of the specifics beyond what I've listed above - sorry. If I really thought hard about it for a while I could probably recall more... is a 12GA shotgun what one would typically use for skeet shooting? If not, I've done a fair amount of that, so whatever one would most likely use is probably what I DID use.... Thanks for the other intel though. I had NO idea But I do now! |
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Post by Buckshot on Jan 20, 2005 1:49:39 GMT -5
Kacer,
If you had said trap, I would have bit on the 12 ga. right away. Skeet, on the other hand, is fired regularly with 4 calibers of shotguns, 12 ga., 20 ga., 28 ga. and .410 bore.
Trap has a single house that all birds come out of. Skeet has two houses, a high and a low house and you move around them much more.
Uzi, unless something real non-standard, would either be 9mm P or .45 ACP. I don't know of any other production calibers imported into the US.
.30-06 is good. Was it a semi-auto or a bolt action, pump action or single shot? Semi-auto, in most cases, takes up some of the recoil. People sometimes complain of shooting the M1 Garand, so I give them 5 rounds (same ammo) with a bolt action Springfield and the M1 is never a problem again
If you shot any of the others (bolt, pump or single shot) then you took the full recoil of the cartridge. That tells me that you should be "good to go" on any of the old "main battle rifle" cartridges (.30-06, .303 Brit., 7.62 X 54R, 7.92 X 57, 7 X 57, 6.5 X 55, 7.5 X 55, 7.5 X 54 and 7.62 X 51 Nato).
No problem as to the other intel. You can jump into the deep end of the pool with relatively little investment, that is what can make it so dangerous!
Buckshot
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) and don't recall any of the specifics beyond what I've listed above - sorry.